<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Wishful thinking</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.klintron.com/brain/archives/2008/04/16/wishful-thinking/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.klintron.com/brain/archives/2008/04/16/wishful-thinking/</link>
	<description>thoughts on media, technology, and culture</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 18:46:39 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: Sydney</title>
		<link>http://www.klintron.com/brain/archives/2008/04/16/wishful-thinking/#comment-49060</link>
		<dc:creator>Sydney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:42:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.klintron.com/?p=1347#comment-49060</guid>
		<description>That's one of the big things that drives me nuts when trying to talk to people about biofuels. So many of them seem to think that Ethanol is the same as Biodiesel. Um...is gasoline the same as diesel? Last I checked, they weren't.

That being said, both you and Gavin are right. Biodiesel, regardless of the source, is street legal. Straight vegetable oil, however, isn't and is at a "use at your own risk" stage in development. Theoretically, it can be used in diesel engines with a few modifications, but it's generally not advised.

As for the whole "biofuels are worse for the environment than petro" thing, especially when talking about farmland and whatnot, it's almost completely because they're going about it all wrong. As Gavin mentioned, algae has been a consideration for oil production for a while. And for good reason. It produces something like 200 times more oil than corn does. In fact, corn and soy are the worst sources of oil. Algae can also grow pretty much anywhere and in large amounts without much effort or even space. Trying to use corn for oil production is about like trying to use trees as a water source. Keep in mind, too, that farmer's bane isn't lack of supply, it's lack of demand. There are government subsidies in place to keep various crops at or above a certain price.

You then also have the issue of using only one source for fuel. Bad idea. That's what got us into this mess to begin with. We have to be able to use more than one source (in other words, the whole corn/soy thing would not only be disastrous on an environmental level, but also on an economic level).

On a side note, flex-fuel hybrids do great on biofuels, coming in at an average of about 100 mpg, with some models getting upwards of 200 mpg.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s one of the big things that drives me nuts when trying to talk to people about biofuels. So many of them seem to think that Ethanol is the same as Biodiesel. Um&#8230;is gasoline the same as diesel? Last I checked, they weren&#8217;t.</p>
<p>That being said, both you and Gavin are right. Biodiesel, regardless of the source, is street legal. Straight vegetable oil, however, isn&#8217;t and is at a &#8220;use at your own risk&#8221; stage in development. Theoretically, it can be used in diesel engines with a few modifications, but it&#8217;s generally not advised.</p>
<p>As for the whole &#8220;biofuels are worse for the environment than petro&#8221; thing, especially when talking about farmland and whatnot, it&#8217;s almost completely because they&#8217;re going about it all wrong. As Gavin mentioned, algae has been a consideration for oil production for a while. And for good reason. It produces something like 200 times more oil than corn does. In fact, corn and soy are the worst sources of oil. Algae can also grow pretty much anywhere and in large amounts without much effort or even space. Trying to use corn for oil production is about like trying to use trees as a water source. Keep in mind, too, that farmer&#8217;s bane isn&#8217;t lack of supply, it&#8217;s lack of demand. There are government subsidies in place to keep various crops at or above a certain price.</p>
<p>You then also have the issue of using only one source for fuel. Bad idea. That&#8217;s what got us into this mess to begin with. We have to be able to use more than one source (in other words, the whole corn/soy thing would not only be disastrous on an environmental level, but also on an economic level).</p>
<p>On a side note, flex-fuel hybrids do great on biofuels, coming in at an average of about 100 mpg, with some models getting upwards of 200 mpg.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.klintron.com/brain/archives/2008/04/16/wishful-thinking/#comment-49047</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.klintron.com/?p=1347#comment-49047</guid>
		<description>Clarification: Gavin tells me that fryer grease is used in commercial biodiesel production. What I'm referring to above is the use of pure fryer grease to power a car.

There's also the question of meat in the food crisis: http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/007940.html

But the problem of meat has been around for decades, the problem of biofuels is a new problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clarification: Gavin tells me that fryer grease is used in commercial biodiesel production. What I&#8217;m referring to above is the use of pure fryer grease to power a car.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s also the question of meat in the food crisis: <a href="http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/007940.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/007940.html</a></p>
<p>But the problem of meat has been around for decades, the problem of biofuels is a new problem.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.klintron.com/brain/archives/2008/04/16/wishful-thinking/#comment-49044</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:41:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.klintron.com/?p=1347#comment-49044</guid>
		<description>Yeah, biodiesel and ethanol are radically different.

I believe the modifications to use spent fryer grease, as opposed to what you can buy at diesel filling stations, are far more expansive. Also, they're not technically road legal. That's not really what I was addressing in this article.

The biodiesel you can buy at biodiesel stations I believe is made from soy, and it's demand is probably does not create so severe a problem as corn ethanol, but forests in Indonesia are already being cut for its production.

There are a number of possible future solutions that could create cleaner biofuels without the drawbacks. Algae and bacteria are a couple possible solutions. I know nothing about the bacteria solutions, but the algae ones are nowhere near economical yet - it costs something like $20-40 a gallon to produce the stuff.

There's a ton of VC being thrown at clean energy and biofuel. Hopefully someone will eventually figure something workable out and we'll be able to distinguish it from the snake oil.

More on the clean energy bubble:

http://www.wired.com/science/planetearth/news/2008/03/cleantech_bubble

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/02/0081908</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, biodiesel and ethanol are radically different.</p>
<p>I believe the modifications to use spent fryer grease, as opposed to what you can buy at diesel filling stations, are far more expansive. Also, they&#8217;re not technically road legal. That&#8217;s not really what I was addressing in this article.</p>
<p>The biodiesel you can buy at biodiesel stations I believe is made from soy, and it&#8217;s demand is probably does not create so severe a problem as corn ethanol, but forests in Indonesia are already being cut for its production.</p>
<p>There are a number of possible future solutions that could create cleaner biofuels without the drawbacks. Algae and bacteria are a couple possible solutions. I know nothing about the bacteria solutions, but the algae ones are nowhere near economical yet - it costs something like $20-40 a gallon to produce the stuff.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a ton of VC being thrown at clean energy and biofuel. Hopefully someone will eventually figure something workable out and we&#8217;ll be able to distinguish it from the snake oil.</p>
<p>More on the clean energy bubble:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.wired.com/science/planetearth/news/2008/03/cleantech_bubble" rel="nofollow">http://www.wired.com/science/planetearth/news/2008/03/cleantech_bubble</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/02/0081908" rel="nofollow">http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/02/0081908</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gavin</title>
		<link>http://www.klintron.com/brain/archives/2008/04/16/wishful-thinking/#comment-49042</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:31:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.klintron.com/?p=1347#comment-49042</guid>
		<description>To expand on that comment.. There's an important distinction to be made between biodiesel and ethanol fuels. There's a zillion articles out there about this, so I'll leave it to you to educate yourself. Basically, whereas ethanol is produced by fermenting plant material like corn (and bear in mind that the corn grown en masse in the States is only tangentially a food crop, although obviously we could grow something else) you can make biodiesel out of food waste products (spent fryer oil). Biodiesel is close-ish in BTU output to petrol gasoline, just a bit lower. Ethanol gas is significantly lower. If I remember right, petroleum diesel tops the list. Biodiesel does burn cleaner, especially the more pure it is. I think a lot of the shit you see for sale here in town is 20% bio, 80% regular diesel. Maybe the other way around ;). You can put that right into any diesel motor and you're good to go. The 'modifications' people sometimes cite boil down to: if hoses or fittings are made of real rubber, they need to be switched out to synthetic rubber.

There's some business about making biofuels out of algae, which I know nothing about. But expect to see laughably unthoughtful comments about this in a political stump speech near you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To expand on that comment.. There&#8217;s an important distinction to be made between biodiesel and ethanol fuels. There&#8217;s a zillion articles out there about this, so I&#8217;ll leave it to you to educate yourself. Basically, whereas ethanol is produced by fermenting plant material like corn (and bear in mind that the corn grown en masse in the States is only tangentially a food crop, although obviously we could grow something else) you can make biodiesel out of food waste products (spent fryer oil). Biodiesel is close-ish in BTU output to petrol gasoline, just a bit lower. Ethanol gas is significantly lower. If I remember right, petroleum diesel tops the list. Biodiesel does burn cleaner, especially the more pure it is. I think a lot of the shit you see for sale here in town is 20% bio, 80% regular diesel. Maybe the other way around ;). You can put that right into any diesel motor and you&#8217;re good to go. The &#8216;modifications&#8217; people sometimes cite boil down to: if hoses or fittings are made of real rubber, they need to be switched out to synthetic rubber.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s some business about making biofuels out of algae, which I know nothing about. But expect to see laughably unthoughtful comments about this in a political stump speech near you.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.klintron.com/brain/archives/2008/04/16/wishful-thinking/#comment-48983</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 05:36:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.klintron.com/?p=1347#comment-48983</guid>
		<description>WorldChanging has set me straight on some details from the recent studies on carbon emissions and biofuels:

"It is important to specify that the Searchinger study does not say that current corn ethanol production increases greenhouse gases (GHGs).  Its findings reflect land use changes tied to an increase in U.S. corn ethanol production approximately six times that of today."

It also says that biodiesel is more effecient than ethanol.

See here: http://www.worldchanging.com/archives//007868.html

Many problems are still applicable, but the situation is not as dire as I thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WorldChanging has set me straight on some details from the recent studies on carbon emissions and biofuels:</p>
<p>&#8220;It is important to specify that the Searchinger study does not say that current corn ethanol production increases greenhouse gases (GHGs).  Its findings reflect land use changes tied to an increase in U.S. corn ethanol production approximately six times that of today.&#8221;</p>
<p>It also says that biodiesel is more effecient than ethanol.</p>
<p>See here: <a href="http://www.worldchanging.com/archives//007868.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.worldchanging.com/archives//007868.html</a></p>
<p>Many problems are still applicable, but the situation is not as dire as I thought.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
